Why I don't use WL9 a lot

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Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by nkf »

I have WL9 Pro and two licenses of WL9EL and would like to work more with WL9 as it is going into the right direction and looks easy on the eyes (with he dark GUI), but there are several obstacles why I have to go back to Audition, Twistedwave and so on. I know that PG will point to this and that and ask for plug in vendors, versions and so on or send bug reports, like for my VST connection masg. popping up. But I payed some substantial money and don't want to have to deal with workarounds and betatsting all the time.
Annoying things for me:
- overall sluggish and error prone plug in handling -> plug ins don't show up fully ... can't be dragged easily ... like stucked, then suddenly jump to a new location - I have over 700 plug ins active (and yes, all bought and legal licenses) I don't want to report any single problem which I encounter - that is the job for real betatesters, pay them or give them enough free licenses and they will find the bugs. It is confirmed to me by plug in developers, that WL9 is causing problems which are not with other programs or DAWs.
- updates delete preferences - can be recovered from backups - but, wtf, that shouldn't happen at all!
- rendering window is covered by plug ins - have to be closed manually one by one ...
- playback of audio files is a drag ... the pause is still there, although shorter. I want hitting Space and play the selected area, like in Cubase/Nuendo, Wavelab 6 and all my other audio editors. If I have set a loop I want hit Space and it plays only that loop as long as I hit Space again -> simple and effective. Maybe I'm to dumb to find the right key commands for that but I have a lot o fthings to do and cannot play easter egg search all day.
I'm always stuck with these annoying things and change to other editors
I see myself as a good Steinberg customer with Nuendo 7, two Cubase Pro 8.5, two Halion 5 licenses and so on and I just would like to see WL9 in the same professional working state like these programs, following the same handling when it comes to playback.
WL9 Pro is running on OSX 10.10.5, WL9EL on OSX 10.10.5 and Windows 7/64 Professional. The Windows version runs fine so far but I mostly record with it and do basic editing. I still have my WL6 license running on this machine.
And I even didn't mention the lack of full surround support, which forces me to use other programs for surround file editing. Even the cheap Twistedwave can handle multichannel files with ease.
Last edited by nkf on Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

I agree that while WaveLab 9 is MUCH better than 8.5 (and earlier) on nearly every level, there is something different about how WaveLab handles VST plugins (VST3 specifically) compared to any other DAW I have ever used, and not in a good way. It's way more sensitive to crashes than anything else.

I've found myself to be part of the beta team for over 5 major plugin vendors now because of issues that happen in WaveLab specifically, which is somewhat time consuming and there is still one major issue that can't seem to be resolved by either the plugin vendor(s) or WaveLab so it's a lot of back and forth and no action and time lost. I'm now at a point where I'm better off just dealing with the crashes and not trying to find a solution as far as my time goes.

I don't do any surround work but I could see why not having a true native solution and instead a workaround for multi-channel files would lead you other apps.

To me, the biggest thing is plugin instability. It seems there is something about VST3 that plugin developers have a hard time with, and the way WaveLab uses VST3 compared to say Cubase results in some excessive crashing. Again, WaveLab 9 is MUCH better than 8, but still has some weird issues...and I try to stick to the major plugin vendors and avoid the small boutique companies with less resources for testing and developing.

I want to test some of the plugin related crashes on my basic Windows system to rule out OS X as the problem or perhaps help reveal the true cause, but even on my Windows system I can't get nearly all my plugins to load up after repeated plugin scans so that's not even an option without taking a few hours to get around that, and I already put in some time initially trying to solve that one.

There are some workflows that are 100% stable with plugins, and then other workflows that cause crash after crash. It's getting harder for me expect a plugin vendor to support all possible ways a DAW can process a plugin (clip, track, montage, master section) and think there must be some wiggle room for WaveLab to be more stable and friendly with 3rd party plugins.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Vocalpoint »

For me - oddly - after all my vocal rants on this over the years - is the new UI.

I am having a hell of a time actually navigating the app once I get in there. While the overall design is light years better than it ever has been - I am finding myself being very lost just trying to work with a simple audio file.

I am constantly looking for Open and especially Close buttons or commands to move between items.

I even went so far as to purchase the current Streamworks video series to help me understand the concepts better but it's been a slow go. I am at a loss to figure out why this is so confusing to me now.

It also does not help that I have moved most of my work over to Studio One now - so I do not spend time in WL like I used to. Practice makes perfect I guess :)

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

Vocalpoint wrote:For me - oddly - after all my vocal rants on this over the years - is the new UI.
Interesting. I rather like the new UI and find it much simper to understand and use, and the consolidation of all the settings/prefs along with the ribbon tab are a big improvement in my book.

I wish I had time to make a better more "real-world" video series demonstrating some basic and advanced workflows in WaveLab, but I have too much paying work filling my inbox each week to think about that right now.

REAPER has a ton of workflow specific videos that Kenny Gioia made. I'm not sure if he donates his time for that or what but they're on the official REAPER homepage and very well done, and super helpful to new users.

I think WaveLab could use something like this. Shorter and more focused videos for each thing that WaveLab can do, instead of longer more broad tutorials.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by nkf »

You guys more or less confirm what I mean - thank you. Where are the "Undo/Redo" entries in the menue? ;-) When changing between apps it is so confusing ...
Developers often seem to be so deep into their own program architecture 'world' - that they forget we are switching between apps all day long, especially as professional users.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by toader »

Justin P wrote:
Vocalpoint wrote:For me - oddly - after all my vocal rants on this over the years - is the new UI.
Interesting. I rather like the new UI and find it much simper to understand and use, and the consolidation of all the settings/prefs along with the ribbon tab are a big improvement in my book.
Agreed - I find the Wavelab 9 UI to be very intuitive - one of the best UI of all of the audio apps I have used.

In addition, I have to say that I'm really surprised to hear about the number of crashes you guys are having. I've been using Wavelab 9 since it came out, and literally, I have NEVER had a crash... it has not crashed even one single time. It hasn't frozen, etc - nothing...

I have had a few little issues with it here and there - the input plugin is my main gripe - that thing drives me crazy... I desperately need to be able to bypass it to do comparisons with the audio I'm mastering compared with the audio that is already mastered and recorded. Also, sometimes saving files and selecting directories seems to take me a lot longer than it seems it should - I always seem to be in the wrong directory, and then I have to select "standard file browser" or whatever it is, and then navigate.

There are some other little details as well, but overall I have to say that I've been extremely pleased with Wavelab 9.
Vocalpoint wrote: I am constantly looking for Open and especially Close buttons or commands to move between items.
I've been using the "File Browser" window and just double clicking in there, or dragging the files into the workspace. Sometimes I use CTRL+O to open, and CTRL+W to close...

nkf wrote: Annoying things for me:
- overall sluggish and error prone plug in handling -> plug ins don't show up fully ... can't be dragged easily ... like stucked, then suddenly jump to a new location - I have over 700 plug ins active (and yes, all bought and legal licenses) I don't want to report any single problem which I encounter - that is the job for real betatesters, pay them or give them enough free licenses and they will find the bugs. It is confirmed to me by plug in developers, that WL9 is causing problems which are not with other programs or DAWs.
- updates delete preferences - can be recovered from backups - but, wtf, that shouldn't happen at all!
- rendering window is covered by plug ins - have to be closed manually one by one ...
- playback of audio files is a drag ... the pause is still there, although shorter. I want hitting Space and play the selected area, like in Cubase/Nuendo, Wavelab 6 and all my other audio editors. If I have set a loop I want hit Space and it plays only that loop as long as I hit Space again -> simple and effective. Maybe I'm to dumb to find the right key commands for that but I have a lot o fthings to do and cannot play easter egg search all day.
-Even the cheap Twistedwave can handle multichannel files with ease.
Maybe it's a MAC vs PC thing... It seems like many of the users having problems are on MAC. I've been on PC and have never experienced ANY of these issues from your list:
nkf wrote: - overall sluggish and error prone plug in handling -> plug ins don't show up fully ... can't be dragged easily ... like stucked, then suddenly jump to a new location - I have over 700 plug ins active (and yes, all bought and legal licenses) I don't want to report any single problem which I encounter - that is the job for real betatesters, pay them or give them enough free licenses and they will find the bugs. It is confirmed to me by plug in developers, that WL9 is causing problems which are not with other programs or DAWs.


Never had a problem with plugins not showing up... never had a problem with dragging them or having them stuck or jumping... I have never had any of these issues - not even one time.

nkf wrote:
- updates delete preferences - can be recovered from backups - but, wtf, that shouldn't happen at all!


On the PC this is not an issue - never been a problem. I do agree with you however, that is seems ridiculous how often it seems to be a problem for MAC users... It seems like every time someone is complaining about problems, I always seem people answer posts with "JUST DELETE YOUR PREFERENCES"... I'm glad I'm not on a MAC!!! Those poor preferences seem to be a real cause of problems!

nkf wrote:
- rendering window is covered by plug ins - have to be closed manually one by one ...


I have NEVER had this problem... Once again, maybe it's a MAC thing...

nkf wrote:
- playback of audio files is a drag ... the pause is still there, although shorter. I want hitting Space and play the selected area, like in Cubase/Nuendo, Wavelab 6 and all my other audio editors. If I have set a loop I want hit Space and it plays only that loop as long as I hit Space again -> simple and effective. Maybe I'm to dumb to find the right key commands for that but I have a lot o fthings to do and cannot play easter egg search all day.
-Even the cheap Twistedwave can handle multichannel files with ease.


I agree somewhat... I have found looping in Wavelab to be slow and frustrating... I much prefer the way Cubase handles loops... In Cubase, If I hit "P", the loop "range" automatically surrounds the selected event. I can see the loop range in the timeline at the top of the screen. There are no special "loop markers", and there is an on/off button with a key command to enable or disable the loop. It always loops that range, no matter if audio or events are selected or not. The loop can be enabled during playback, or while stopped. Overall, it works great...
Last edited by toader on Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Vocalpoint »

nkf wrote:You guys more or less confirm what I mean - thank you. Where are the "Undo/Redo" entries in the menue? ;-) When changing between apps it is so confusing ...
My biggest problem I think is "clearing the decks" when I am done with one thing and want to start another.

Example - I fire up WL9 and kick off with a basic Audio file template - I do my thing and now I want CLOSE that file completely and start on something new.

But instead of being able to just click File->Close on the current "file" or "project" and end up with a sparse almost empty WL9 window - I find myself having to EXIT WL completely and start the app again with a new template.

Clearly I am missing something very obvious here.

Something that my Windows experience tells me should be in the very top left file menu - but strangely is just not there.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

When working with lots of files, I find myself right clicking on the tab of a file and choosing "Close All But This" and then just one file is open which I can quickly and easily click on the X to close that last file and then I have a clean starting point again.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

@nkf
I want hitting Space and play the selected area, like in Cubase/Nuendo, Wavelab 6
You can press F6 to play the current range, according to how it is defined.
Cmd + F6 is to play the current selection, whatever the settings.
Under the Transport preset menu, you can see other shortcuts.
Space bar is for playing what you have chosen to play (the Transport settings). This might be the active clip, the whole file, an audio selection, with/without pre/post roll, etc.

On the Mac, are you running the 64 bit version of WaveLab? Most 32 bit plugins use the old OSX system and are not recommended to use.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

I am constantly looking for Open and especially Close buttons or commands to move between items.
Open button is here:
2016-08-08_18-50-15.png
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Close button on the file tabs. Like your internet browser.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

Where are the "Undo/Redo" entries in the menue? ;-) When changing between apps it is so confusing ...
You have undo/redo buttons there:
2016-08-08_18-52-28.png
(11.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet
And of course the standard key shortcuts.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by nkf »

PG wrote:@nkf
I want hitting Space and play the selected area, like in Cubase/Nuendo, Wavelab 6
You can press F6 to play the current range, according to how it is defined.
Cmd + F6 is to play the current selection, whatever the settings.
Under the Transport preset menu, you can see other shortcuts.
Space bar is for playing what you have chosen to play (the Transport settings). This might be the active clip, the whole file, an audio selection, with/without pre/post roll, etc.

On the Mac, are you running the 64 bit version of WaveLab? Most 32 bit plugins use the old OSX system and are not recommended to use.
I'm running (of course) the 64 bit version. As somebody mentioned, I would like to have the exact same behaviour as it is in Cubase/Nuendo: hit Space -> plays the selected range, is "Loop" enabled -> it plays back looping that. I don't want to hit F6 or anything else. I can set WL6 like this but was not able to do that in WL9. I don't need myriads of play functions.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

I have found looping in Wavelab to be slow and frustrating
Make a selection and press Shift + G.
Some other shortcuts there:
2016-08-08_18-55-59.png
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And custom ones can be defined.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by nkf »

PG wrote:
Where are the "Undo/Redo" entries in the menue? ;-) When changing between apps it is so confusing ...
You have undo/redo buttons there:
2016-08-08_18-52-28.png
And of course the standard key shortcuts.
I want them in the edit menu as usual - because I may be there with my mouse ... looking for buttons is tedious for me. I hit cmd-Z then ... if I work with colleges and they sit at my machines it is natural for them to go thru the menus too.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

My biggest problem I think is "clearing the decks" when I am done with one thing and want to start another.
Did you try this?
2016-08-08_18-58-07.png
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by toader »

PG wrote:
I have found looping in Wavelab to be slow and frustrating
Make a selection and press Shift + G.
Some other shortcuts there:
2016-08-08_18-55-59.png
And custom ones can be defined.

Ok thanks PG, I'll give this a try... I think I probably need to take a little time to learn some of Wavelab's commands like this...
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

Vocalpoint wrote:or commands to move between items.
I'm not sure the Windows/PC equivalent, but on OS X you can press Control + Page Up or Page Down to quickly toggle between open items such as montages or audio files.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

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nkf wrote:I want them in the edit menu as usual - because I may be there with my mouse ... looking for buttons is tedious for me.
Too bad you're not happy, but one of the main gripes with earlier WL versions was the myriad of menu items that were all there but very hard to find. Now many functions are in either the contextual ribbon or function tabs. And ofcourse CTL (CMD) Z and CTL (CMD) Y. Personally, I don't need a menu item for basic things as Undo or Redo.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

Arjan P wrote:Personally, I don't need a menu item for basic things as Undo or Redo.

Agreed. The history window is nice so you can see what you accidentally just did, and then use the shortcuts to undo if necessary.

I do still see some cases where choosing "Undo" will cause the zoom level to change dramatically (usually zooms way out) even though I have WaveLab set to not change zoom level for Undo/Redo.
Last edited by Justin P on Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by nkf »

Justin P wrote:
Arjan P wrote:
nkf wrote:Personally, I don't need a menu item for basic things as Undo or Redo.

Agreed. The history window is nice so you can see what you accidentally just did, and then use the shortcuts to undo if necessary.

I do still see some cases where choosing "Undo" will cause the zoom level to change dramatically (usually zooms way out) even though I have WaveLab set to not change zoom level for Undo/Redo.
you quoted me wrongly ... I would like to see standard menu items where they belong, because it is basic ergonomics. I didn't advocate for cluttering the menus with this and that. Undo/Redo is fundamental ...

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

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Justin P wrote: I do still see some cases where choosing "Undo" will cause the zoom level to change dramatically (usually zooms way out) even though I have WaveLab set to not change zoom level for Undo/Redo.
I get this too, on Windows, but only about half the time, and I sill don't know why. It's been like this for me since at least Wavelab 8.0.4, and I still haven't figured why it's ok sometimes but other times not. It's really disorienting when it happens. "Include zoom level" is always turned off in my settings.

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by Justin P »

bob99 wrote:
Justin P wrote: I do still see some cases where choosing "Undo" will cause the zoom level to change dramatically (usually zooms way out) even though I have WaveLab set to not change zoom level for Undo/Redo.
I get this too, on Windows, but only about half the time, and I sill don't know why. It's been like this for me since at least Wavelab 8.0.4, and I still haven't figured why it's ok sometimes but other times not. It's really disorienting when it happens. "Include zoom level" is always turned off in my settings.
For me, it usually happens when I'm zoomed in close to tweak some clip start times or fade ins. I've reported the issue and hopefully we see a fix in the next update, but here's an older video I captured of it for the report:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylfxoaxy4x7wj ... m.mov?dl=0
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by mike841 »

Ditto, ditto, ditto! Please Steinberg listen to nkf. I think it just make sense that WaveLab should feel "familiar" to Cubase/Nuendo. My work is heavy and I have to work fast. I don't think I should have to learn a new command set from the same vendor. Like nkf, I too decided to go with WaveLab out of loyalty, even though I was happy with Sound Forge for many years. It's not as sophisticated as WaveLab but it has a clean, consise user interface that just makes sense. I really love what WaveLab has to offer. But it's just not intuitive to me.

PS. Why!? Why!? Why!? does every update of every Steinberg product I own, cause me to lose my PREFERENCES!?

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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

I do still see some cases where choosing "Undo" will cause the zoom level to change dramatically (usually zooms way out) even though I have WaveLab set to not change zoom level for Undo/Redo.
Check this:
2016-08-09_07-36-33.png
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Re: Why I don't use WL9 a lot

Post by PG »

Why!? does every update of every Steinberg product I own, cause me to lose my PREFERENCES!?
There is no instruction in the installer, or WaveLab to do this.
Maybe you use some "cleanup utility" that does this behind your back.
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