EUCON Update!

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chednb
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EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

Please Update the EUCON adapter so EUCON based controllers like the Avid S series work as they should!
The actual EUCON adapter has several issues and bugs which already exist partly for years. I think Steinberg knows about the issues with EUCON...
here are just a few points, but essential ones:

1) hidden tracks in the Nuendo mixer are still visible / available in the Avid control app / on the Avid S1
2) Nuendo doesn't follow scrolling in the app / nudging or banking on the S1
3) the track switch keys on the bottom of the Avid S1 don't work (shift, control, win, alt)
4) if you open a plugin via the Avid S1, it opens in Nuendo, but when you close it on the S1 (using the "back" button) it is not closing in Nuendo and remains on the screen
5) tbc ...

I think there are lots of users out there using EUCON Avid controllers in combination with Steinberg products... but it is a bit of wasting your money if the implementation in the Software is not doing the job!

So please fix these EUCON issues, thanks
Last edited by chednb on Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by basicX »

Yes! Pls!
+1 !!!
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by mbira »

#1 and #2 would be huge time savers for me! Not to say the others wouldn't be great as well....
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by JeramyMT »

+1
I'm seriously considering the S1 and Dock. If Yamaha/Steinberg actually read this -- creating a product akin to the S1 and Dock would be great. Or heck - maybe even a $$ upgrade add-on for full Eucon compatibility device so you can profit from it. I know Nuage is excellent -- but many folks using Nuendo will either have the money for it, will already have an Avid product or something else, or will need a better low to mid-range option.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by misjavw »

Not to mention the fact that the Avid Control App still crashes Nuendo as reported by several users, including me.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by misjavw »

JeramyMT wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:04 pm
+1
I'm seriously considering the S1 and Dock. If Yamaha/Steinberg actually read this -- creating a product akin to the S1 and Dock would be great. Or heck - maybe even a $$ upgrade add-on for full Eucon compatibility device so you can profit from it. I know Nuage is excellent -- but many folks using Nuendo will either have the money for it, will already have an Avid product or something else, or will need a better low to mid-range option.
Same here. The only serious option for me to invest in an affordable new control surface at the moment would be an S3 with Avid Dock. Since a Nuage system is still pretty expensive for many small to mid-size studio's. What we need is a Nuage mini!! If Yamaha/Steinberg where to develop a Nuage that is competitive to an S3/Avid dock - like setup in the same price range, I am sure they'd have a winner! It would really fill the gap between the current Nuage system and third party controllers like Mackie Control (which I use now), icon pro, and Avid artist series.

We want Nuage mini!! (and a Eucon update too...) :lol:
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

I use the S1 with the Avid Control App running on a Samsung Galaxy S5e tab. Everything just works fine and the whole system in combination with Nuendo would be just perfect for me... Unfortunately there are these essential Eucon adapter bugs... If they would fix the bugs, maybe I buy a second S1 for 16 faders, because ethe controller in combination with the Avid control app is just awesome.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

misjavw wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:12 am

We want Nuage mini!! (and a Eucon update too...) :lol:
Yeah a mini Nuage (affordable) would be a nice alternative as well!
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

mbira wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:03 am
#1 and #2 would be huge time savers for me! Not to say the others wouldn't be great as well....
UPDATE: I was in contact with Steinberg phone support and Avid Support, both assured me that they are (will be) aware of these issues and will try to fix them and get in touch with each other. I will be persistent on this one... so pls Steinberg, this is a huge need for lots of us!

thanks and all the best,
cheers
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by JeramyMT »

chednb wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:19 pm
mbira wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:03 am
#1 and #2 would be huge time savers for me! Not to say the others wouldn't be great as well....
UPDATE: I was in contact with Steinberg phone support and Avid Support, both assured me that they are (will be) aware of these issues and will try to fix them and get in touch with each other. I will be persistent on this one... so pls Steinberg, this is a huge need for lots of us!

thanks and all the best,
cheers
That would be amazing. I hope they can work out the issues. Thanks for the update.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by mbira »

JeramyMT wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:36 am
chednb wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:19 pm
mbira wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:03 am
#1 and #2 would be huge time savers for me! Not to say the others wouldn't be great as well....
UPDATE: I was in contact with Steinberg phone support and Avid Support, both assured me that they are (will be) aware of these issues and will try to fix them and get in touch with each other. I will be persistent on this one... so pls Steinberg, this is a huge need for lots of us!

thanks and all the best,
cheers
That would be amazing. I hope they can work out the issues. Thanks for the update.
They have been aware of these issues for something like 3 years now....
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

I know, I told them :D
But I think if more people contact them and tell them that there are several major bugs, then hopefully something changes.
Just complaining here in the forum won't bring us further... my opinion.

cheers
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by chednb »

Unfortunately no improvements in the actual Nuendo update...

I still hope for the big 10.5 update to get all the needed Eucon changes so controllers work as expected.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Niekbeem »

I know that Steinberg bought an Avid S1 no so long ago, and I hope they bought it in order to check their upcoming EuCon-features ?
Fingers crossed, indeed, for some update which at least contains stability improvements for the smaller EuCon-devices and track visibility-features on the larger EuCon-devices.

+1

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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by jorisdeman »

Just do a Neucon lite - like an Avid PT Control with iPad control, and optional extra fader banks and be done with it. Why does another competing manufacturer gets to make better surfaces and control apps for Nuendo than the company that develops it?
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Fredo »

jorisdeman wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:01 am
Why does another competing manufacturer gets to make better surfaces and control apps for Nuendo than the company that develops it?
Because Steinberg legally can't include Eucon into their surfaces.
That part of Eucon was bought by Avid and since then they closed it completely for the competition.
For example, our Nuage systems have no Eucon control whatsoever.

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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

mbira wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:00 pm

They have been aware of these issues for something like 3 years now....
And while it remains unresolved people here play the blame game, arguing why it's the other company's fault.
3 years without any progress for the user whatsoever then... :roll:
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Fredo »

It's not a blaming game, it is clarifying the situation.

1. Steinberg developed the Eucon Protocol. On the software side and -in collaboration with Euphonix- on the hardware side.
Hence why for example the WK Audio consoles used Eucon. (And they still work perfectly)
2. Avid bought Euphonix and closed down the protocol for every other Hardware/remote manufacturer.

So now we are in a situation where Avid changes whatever they want to the Eucon Protocol, and every other DAW builder needs to follow what Avid is doing/changing. A bit like they have -and are- doing with OMF and AAF.
I am not saying that Avid does that on purpose, to annoy the other manufacturers.
Fact remains that this is what is happening, and reason why every DAW builder always need to play catch-up with the newest developments.
And there isn't always time to react quickly, or the resources aren't there, etc ...


Fredo

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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

Fredo wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:48 pm
It's not a blaming game, it is clarifying the situation.

1. Steinberg developed the Eucon Protocol. On the software side and -in collaboration with Euphonix- on the hardware side.
Hence why for example the WK Audio consoles used Eucon. (And they still work perfectly)
Well I had an WK, I can't remember installing EuCon to use it. In fact I am pretty sure it used simple MIDI because I emulated the control room section via touch OSC page on my iPad, to be able to control it from the microphone in the recording room.
Maybe EuCon internally uses the same MIDI commands with ports that are invisible to the user, but EuCon expects CAT connected network cables and not MIDI. The WK Audio installed a midi driver on PCs that was working with the USB connected hardware. Seems like a complety different implementation to me. But, yes that's an "outsider" perspective because as you sate correctly, EuCon is completely closed. It was not needed for the WK, though.
Fredo wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:48 pm

2. Avid bought Euphonix and closed down the protocol for every other Hardware/remote manufacturer.

So now we are in a situation where Avid changes whatever they want to the Eucon Protocol, and every other DAW builder needs to follow what Avid is doing/changing. A bit like they have -and are- doing with OMF and AAF.
I am not saying that Avid does that on purpose, to annoy the other manufacturers.
Fact remains that this is what is happening, and reason why every DAW builder always need to play catch-up with the newest developments.
And there isn't always time to react quickly, or the resources aren't there, etc ...


Fredo
In the end it does not matter, does it?
What I read between the lines of the feature request is the need for a working solution to the problems and/or the need for a smaller form factor/budget hardware.

I understand that it's not much fun from a business side to spend huge amounts of money developing for a moving target and see some other company taking the profits (by selling the hardware). That's why I spoke to Steinberg years ago about the huge gap between the Nuage and the CC121. It seemed their product management was not interested because apparently they thought the market is too small or they have been burned by (the terribly toyish looking) Houston. I don't know. I disagreed strongly, at that moment there were no S3 and S1, just the artist range. People buy expensive guitars for thousands of dollars and I hear the S1's are selling like crazy. I have an S3 myself and the unit is AMAZING with ProTools Ultimate. A gazillion times better than my WK or my old AMEK ever were. (It's a different generation, I admit)

So while people have been screaming for bug fixes for controllers in Cubendo, AVID (who get a lot of crap in this forum) offer brilliantly working solutions, tightly integrated with their DAW for every budget and form factor.

There simply is so hardware solution working to the same professional standards as for ProTools below the Nuage if you want more than simple fader up/fader down for Cubendo. If you don't like the Nuage form factor that means Cubendo is a lot less attractive. But that's just my two cents. I know you and many others like the Nuage.
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Fredo »

Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:09 pm


Well I had an WK, I can't remember installing EuCon to use it. In fact I am pretty sure it used simple MIDI [...]
Yeah, my bad. I am confused because Eucon & WK ID development happened at the same time, and Martin Stahl was the key person in both.

Cheers!
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Keyplayer »

OMG, I think that I have lost, conservatively a solid year and a half worth of accrued hours trying to get around this freaking Mirrored Mixing "road block!" :x

I have been begging Avid & SB for years to settle this issue. Avid says it's SB. SB doesn't say anything! As a result, I have been shopping for years for an affordable alternative to get out from under Avid's tyranny. I bought Euphonix BECAUSE I wanted an open all inclusive platform to work with Nuendo and any other DAW available. I was crushed when Avid bought Eucon and "locked everything down." I've been looking for a way out ever since! :cry:

If SB made an "Artist Series" version of Nuage, I'd have left the Artist Series the instant it was released!! Since they didn't (and/or won't), I was forced to seriously consider a 25 fader (three S1s and a Dock) S1 system BECAUSE THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE SOLVED THE MIXING MIRROR PROBLEM! I would've preferred to do a pair of S3s with a Dock. But, of course, Avid won't allow that. In any case, this claim, of course, turned out not to be true (Hell, they didn't even fix the Systemic Crashing of Nuendo issue!) and so I didn't purchase it.

I've spent the last 3 days trying to convince myself to give the Qcon Pro X a try. But it's quirks, limitations and horrible product support reputation have made this a really hard sell. I also looked at The Slate Raven and D-Touch on a touch screen. But I really want the tactile feedback of real faders. So I started looking at Presonus' Faderport 24. Now I'm dealing with the same issues of limitations and ergonomics. It seems, and I am positive that this was Avid's goal all along, that the only viable solution was to drop Nuendo/Cubase and just switch to Pro Tools. Then my hardware would do everything it was designed to do. The fact that I have fought this battle for years show's my clear opposition to ever submitting to "Avid's Rule!" I'll go back to keyboard and mouse first! :x

But the bottom line is that the Artist Series is, unfortunately the ONLY SYSTEM that fits my space and changing ergonomic requirements. If it weren't for that damned "Mirror Mixing Impasse" between Avid & SB, I could've probably cured cancer by now! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Keyplayer »

misjavw wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:05 am
Not to mention the fact that the Avid Control App still crashes Nuendo as reported by several users, including me.
Amen!! :x
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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by miguelnunes »

Fredo wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:48 pm
It's not a blaming game, it is clarifying the situation.

1. Steinberg developed the Eucon Protocol. On the software side and -in collaboration with Euphonix- on the hardware side.
Hence why for example the WK Audio consoles used Eucon. (And they still work perfectly)
2. Avid bought Euphonix and closed down the protocol for every other Hardware/remote manufacturer.

So now we are in a situation where Avid changes whatever they want to the Eucon Protocol, and every other DAW builder needs to follow what Avid is doing/changing. A bit like they have -and are- doing with OMF and AAF.
I am not saying that Avid does that on purpose, to annoy the other manufacturers.
Fact remains that this is what is happening, and reason why every DAW builder always need to play catch-up with the newest developments.
And there isn't always time to react quickly, or the resources aren't there, etc ...


Fredo

Thanks for the clarification Fredo.
Wish Steinberg talked to Yamaha in order to create alternatives to the Avid S1 and S3 series, above that there’s already the Nuage, I would sell my S3 and dock in a blink of an eye.
Isn’t the Nuage a closed protocol? It’s my understanding that the Yamaha DM2000 also had a closed protocol, not the mcu one, am I correct?

Thanks.

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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by Fredo »

miguelnunes wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:37 pm

Wish Steinberg talked to Yamaha in order to create alternatives to the Avid S1 and S3 series, above that there’s already the Nuage, I would sell my S3 and dock in a blink of an eye.
Actually, from a economical point of view, it is very simple.
Creating a Yamaha S1 or S3 would cost as much as the Avid S1 or S3.
The features, and what the units can do, would be comparable.
So the result would be that they would be competing Avid with as 100% similar product.
If they would build an S1 or S3 which can do *more* and is better than the AVid S3/S1, then the unit would be much higher priced, and it would only work "better" with Steinberg products. So the marked is simply not big enough.
miguelnunes wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:37 pm
Isn’t the Nuage a closed protocol?
Nuage is using a closed protocol (a specific sdk) for communicating with Cubendo. Hence why Nuage is so deeply integrated into Nuendo/Cubase.
Nuage also has a PT Bridge, so you can control a PT system.
Unfortunately, due to the Avid restrictions, that protocol isn't as deeply integrated as Eucon.
I'd say you can compare it a bit with the Macky Contol protocol.


HTH
Fredo

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Re: EUCON Update!

Post by miguelnunes »

Fredo wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:59 am
miguelnunes wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:37 pm

Wish Steinberg talked to Yamaha in order to create alternatives to the Avid S1 and S3 series, above that there’s already the Nuage, I would sell my S3 and dock in a blink of an eye.
Actually, from a economical point of view, it is very simple.
Creating a Yamaha S1 or S3 would cost as much as the Avid S1 or S3.
The features, and what the units can do, would be comparable.
So the result would be that they would be competing Avid with as 100% similar product.
If they would build an S1 or S3 which can do *more* and is better than the AVid S3/S1, then the unit would be much higher priced, and it would only work "better" with Steinberg products. So the marked is simply not big enough.
miguelnunes wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:37 pm
Isn’t the Nuage a closed protocol?
Nuage is using a closed protocol (a specific sdk) for communicating with Cubendo. Hence why Nuage is so deeply integrated into Nuendo/Cubase.
Nuage also has a PT Bridge, so you can control a PT system.
Unfortunately, due to the Avid restrictions, that protocol isn't as deeply integrated as Eucon.
I'd say you can compare it a bit with the Macky Contol protocol.


HTH
Fredo
So, what you’re trying to say is that most of us are stuck with the Eucon protocol, right?
The problem is that we’re always addressing Avid and Steinberg to try and solve the issues.
Just recently, avid came out with an update that finally addressed an old issue, the numeric value discrepancy between the controller hardware and Nuendo Soft faders, take a guess who they blamed for that long time bug?
Also, I’ve been buggin Avid for a while now, they literally sell this Hardware as being full (?) Cubendo compatible, I’m sure you guys at Steinberg are aware of that.
Problem is, after I leave this forum and enter the Avid one, the ball is immediately send to this court, seems like a game of hot potato.
Anyways, thanks for the info Fredo, I wish both companies would find a way for better communication, like you said, the market is too small for a Steinberg/Yamaha solution.

Thanks.

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