Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

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jmax
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Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

I'm having a problem with VST Connect SE that I can't find a solution for.

I've been trying to record a drummer from across the Atlantic - we've been having major network sync issues with VST Connect, but that's another subject.

He's on the latest version of Performer for Windows, and I'm on the latest version of SE on Mac in Cubase 10.5.

Anyway, every single time we record, the timing sounds fine while I'm monitoring during the recording, but on playback, his part is delayed by exactly one 16th note. if I drag his track forward, everything lines up perfectly.

What could I be doing wrong here?

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

I suspect you have some plugin(s) with delay in your project which interfere with VST Connect delay compensation. But do not engage "Constrain delay Compensation", although I doubt you have, because that doesn't go together with VST Connect at all.
You say "latest version" - well, time is relative :-)
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

I took a look at the troubleshooting guide, and saw that plugins could be an issue, so I made changes. The tracks used in this project are all exported stems from the original project. There are no plugins in use at all. And “Constrain Delay Compensation” is not engaged. Didn’t make a difference.

One thing I didn’t mention - on the performer end, the drummer says he hears a delay in his mic channel, even when we’re not rolling.

I mean “latest version” as of the post. I have dyscalculia, so I avoid typing long numbers because I’ll probably get them wrong, so it’s just easier to say, “latest version.”

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

jmax wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:31 am
I took a look at the troubleshooting guide, and saw that plugins could be an issue, so I made changes. The tracks used in this project are all exported stems from the original project. There are no plugins in use at all. And “Constrain Delay Compensation” is not engaged. Didn’t make a difference.

One thing I didn’t mention - on the performer end, the drummer says he hears a delay in his mic channel, even when we’re not rolling.

I mean “latest version” as of the post. I have dyscalculia, so I avoid typing long numbers because I’ll probably get them wrong, so it’s just easier to say, “latest version.”
Ok, there were several 'latest' versions, so make sure you have this:

https://www.steinberg.net/index.php?id= ... ct_pro&L=0

When you say "the drummer says he hears a delay in his mic channel", what exactly is delayed? Are you on speakers? Try headphones. Also make sure that the "Rehearsal" button is off, it disengages synchronization.

You may also want to look at this:

https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/de/a ... ST-Connect

Hope that helps.
musi

jmax
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

Thanks. Those are the versions we both have - the problem existed before and after those updates. I followed all the instructions on the troubleshooting page - even so far as to only use exported stems for playback.

We're both using headphones. When the drummer brings up the mic channel in the Performer monitor section, he says that he's hearing his playing coming back to him delayed - enough that he can't play if he's got that fader up. This is when we are in idle mode with talkback enabled. (not recording or playing back the track)

We've tried this with both the current versions and the previous versions, and every single time, the recorded track is offset by exactly one 16th note - this behaviour is consistent.

One thing we haven't tried as of yet is to import the stems to a fresh project. We'll try that next.

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

"he says that he's hearing his playing coming back to him delayed" - the path from the Performer input back to cue (what Performer hears) is only possible if you have either engaged Track Monitor for a Performer track - but afaik this is blocked for tracks where VST Connect is inserted in the input channel - or, that you have some pre fader send or plugin in that path which routes to the Performer cue.
Pls check: when your drummer speaks into his mic, do you see the level of the VST Connect plugins' CUE meter follow his signal? Then you definately have a routing issue.
If not, it is a problem on the Performer side, such as listening to direct monitoring at the same time, usually that's a mix dial on the audio interface.
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

Track Monitor may be part of the problem. It’s not consistently blocked on the Performer track.

We’ll be working again on Tuesday - I’ll start with a fresh project and import stems with no plugins, and ensure that Track Monitor is not engaged.

Fingers crossed!

Thanks for the advice.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

So, started a new project, and managed to get one track recorded okay.

Then Cubase crashed - after that it was the same 16th note offset.

The thing I notice is that I hear the performer out of sync via the monitor. The one time it worked, I heard them in sync.

There are no plugins used at all, and I have no idea why it worked correctly the single time because I changed nothing.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

The thing I notice is that I hear the performer out of sync via the monitor. The one time it worked, I heard them in sync.
What you mean "via the monitor"? Do not engage track monitor for Performer tracks even if it is possible.
"Cuabse crashed" - could you send a crash log? And did you restart? People sometimes refer to "crashed" when they mean something else like hung, or partly crashed, so, sorry for the silly question :-)
Also, some more info about your systems would be helpful, Win/Mac, Cubase version, audio interfaces, buffer size etc. Furthermore, this may help to understand delay issues etc: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/de/a ... ST-Connect
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

When I say "via the monitor" I mean from the feed that's controlled by the VST Connect editor directly to the right of the Talkback control. After following your advice in the posts above, I ensure that Track Monitor is not engaged on the performer track.

When I say "crashed" I mean a full crash - completely gone with a crash log displayed. Cubase hung several times as well. Where can I find the crash log to share it?

Details on my machine:

Model Name: MacBook Pro
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Core i7
Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz
Number of Processors: 1
Total Number of Cores: 4
L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
L3 Cache: 6 MB
Hyper-Threading Technology: Enabled
Memory: 16 GB
Boot ROM Version: 159.0.0.0.0
SMC Version (system): 2.19f12

Running OS 10.15.4

Cubase Pro 10.5.12
VST Connect SE 4.0.42
Audio Interface: UR28M - buffer size 512

ASIO Guard is off
Direct monitoring is off

I'm on a VDSL connection with 40 Mbs download and 17 Mbs upload. The other end is on a fibre connection with 150 Mbs symmetrical.

On the other end, all I know is a laptop running Windows 10 and VST Connect Performer 4.042 with a Samson C01U USB condenser mic.

And I've read the post you referenced, and have already followed all the recommendations.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

Just got the details of the computer at the other end:

HP 17bs062st 173 Laptop Computer
7th Generation Intel Core i5
1TB SATA HD 8GB DDR4
Windows 10 Intel
Windows 10 Home 64-bit Version: 17134.885

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

Forgot to mention one thing - I'm using an aggregate audio device - I've added the system audio to the UR28M in order to use the built-in mic on my laptop as a talkback mic.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

Thanks for the details!
Let's say the performer speaks, I get that you can see his signal with significant level in the CUE meter in the VST Connect plugin, right? That meter should show the same level as the VST Connect Cue channel meter in the Control Room. If the Performers' signal appears there, you definately have a shortcut somewhere which routes the VST Connect signal to the cue sent that targets Performer, which you certainly don't want because it introduces a delay.
Some things you could try: empty project, remove everything from the Control Room that relates to VST Connect, make sure there are no other plugs or 'strange' ports in the Control Room, and start over with 'Create VST Connect'. Connect and check if performer still receives a loopback signal (watch the CUE meter when he speaks). If there is still a loop, delete the Performer track altogether. I assume the delay will be gone, which would indicate that there is some path from the Performer track to the VST Connect Cue send.
As for crashlogs, they should be present in /Users/<me>/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports (obviouly, replace <me> by your user name).
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

So I started with the project that we made two successful recordings with, and we had the same problem with the performer hearing a delay in the monitor channel for their microphone when it was brought up in the Performer interface.

I did not see his signal in the CUE meter (it's never appeared in the CUE meter) It also does not show up in the VST Connect Cue channel meter either, but there is still a delay in his headphones between what he plays and what he hears coming back to him.

The thing is, I made no changes the two times we managed to record without an offset - it just happened, so I don't know what to do in order to make it happen again.

Next I created a new project from the empty template, added VST Connect, connected to the drummer and ensured that he wasn't getting a delayed signal in his monitor feed, and then imported the stems from the original project. It seems to be working now. This is exactly what I did before - but with one difference. This time I've selected C1 in the Control Room channel instead of Mix. He says it sounds better on his end as well.

However, now the audio comes in with a burst of white noise in my headphones when we start recording, then plays fine. He doesn't get the burst of white noise on his end.

We'll work a bit more this afternoon and see what happens.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

I think I solved it!

First - the white noise comes when the talkback switches off automatically. If I turn it off before pressing play, it's fine.

Now for the offset - it seem to come from the interaction between the built in USB driver of the Samson mic and the Generic Low Latency ASIO driver and VST Connect Performer. It starts to accumulate latency the longer it is in use. We've solved the problem by my switching from the Generic ASIO driver to ASIO4ALL and back again in the VST Connect editor. It seems to reset either the mic or the Generic ASIO driver, and we're able to work. I'm recommending that he invest in a USB audio interface and a better mic.

We managed to do several takes today.

But now the bad news. When I hit logout from VST Connect, Cubase immediately crashed. I've captured the output of the window in a text file - for some reason there are no Cubase crash logs showing up in /DiagnosticReports. It's too long to paste into this window, so I don't know how to share it.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

pls send via PM! Also, it may be fixed in an upcoming version as we found a related bug.
Did you try to use ASIO4all altogether instead of Generic Low Latency Driver?
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

I'll send it to you. We didn't use ASIO44ALL because he can't get his headphone out to work with it for some reason.

He'll be getting a USB audio interface and a new mic soon, so that should make a difference.

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by jmax »

Hi,

Thanks again for your help with this.

I've attempted to attach the Cubase crash log to a PM as a .txt file, but the messaging system keeps telling me that .txt is an invalid extension. It's the same with .rft, .pdf, .log, and .doc. Also, the PM is just sitting in my outbox, and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Any suggestions on how to send it?

-John

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

wrote a PM, thanks!
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by SBotterbusch »

I’m having this issue New User

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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by SBotterbusch »

Hopefully there’s a “ fix”

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

There are two issues here, which one you refer to?
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by SBotterbusch »

I, am referring to, that when I record a track to a music file imported to Cubasis, when i save my recorded track, then merge it back to the original project in Band Lab, multi track mix editor, the track is not positioned properly.

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musicullum
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Re: Recording out of sync by exactly one 16th note

Post by musicullum »

Ok, but when you import a project in Cubasis, then record: is the recording in sync?
If yes, the problem appears to arise when you bounce back to BandLab, right?
Finally, how exactly do you record, and how do you then "save my recorded track"? Pls describe in more detail, otherwise it comes down to wild guessing.
musi

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